Mike Foster and Jud Wilhite were interviewed on the Catalyst Podcast in December. I finally got around to listening to it. And during the interview Mike shared the following about restoration and grace. This is awesome.
“In a two week period of time this year I had over seven friends, friend and acquaintances who I knew, who blew out of ministry because of an integrity issue. And one of those guys was at the church that I go to. He’s a popular pastor, really talented guy, young guy. Everybody loves this guy. When it came out that he had actually had an affair with another staff member, it was devastating to him. And unfortunately what I saw was that this guy…the phone calls stopped, the lunches stopped. In his greatest time of need the church let him down and his friends let him down. And I remember talking to him a few months later at a coffee shop. And he’s really emotional. And he looks me in the eyes, and he goes, ‘Do you think God still loves me?’ And I said, ‘Of course he loves you. Of course.’ But because of this tragic and horrible experience and this brokenness that he was in he didn’t feel God could love him.
And the second thing and this is really important and I hope that we’re all leaning in on this. He asked, ‘Do you think God could ever use me?’ And you know the answer to that is absolutely yes. But I think that when we don’t rally around our wounded, and the guys that are really struggling, when we cut and run when things get tough. I don’t think that’s Jesus’ way but unfortunately I think that culture has kind of crept in, that we’re not running in when people are falling apart.
Why do we have such a culture that cannot restore our own? And why do we create this culture in the first place? But it gets worse.
Another example of this is maybe you’re familiar with Tara Connor, Miss USA. She had her little scandal and there was this talk that maybe she needed to step down and everybody is waiting for Donald Trump, who I guess runs the pageant. They hold this press conference and everybody goes, ‘What the Donald going to do? What’s the Donald going to do?’ You know, ‘You’re fired.’ And he stand at the podium and he goes, ‘Tara deserves a second chance.’ And what was interesting about that is some of my Christian friends didn’t think Tara deserved a second chance. She should be gone. She messed up and she should be out of there. And I think its a sad day when Donald Trump is the poster child for grace. I mean that should be the Christian community’s banner.”
Well said Mike.
Thanks for this Jonathan. I am going to give Mike a listen.
So true: “we’re not running in when people are falling apart.” But when it comes to pastors, it gets worse because we don’t see them as people—as human. They are super-Christian perfect teachers and leaders without fault or doubt, and damned (literally) are the many pastors who dare question or break the portrayed “perfect” mold…but don’t get me going ’cause I might get riled up. Fuck!
Just this morning I had a discussion with a man who was sharing about how immature he felt most of the Western church is. He, in part, defined that immaturity as coming from so many leaders who felt that “maturity” was “having it all together.” So, if you don’t have it all together, you have to fake it or risk being labeled “immature.” He talked about how the mature were those who fully recognized and accepted the depravity of their sin nature and so could be transparent with others in their own struggles. It has really had me thinking about how few “safe spaces” there are for Christians–ANY Christian, “leader” or not–to share their struggles without severe repercussions falling upon them. I think I’m going to have to write a blog on that topic….
Part of me is so sad about this and part of me is just so pissed off at yet another way “the system” destroys so many people. What a mess. I sure am glad it’s not my bride to clean up ;-). I’d be wringing my hands in hopelessness for sure, but not our Lord! I think it’s going to be beautiful to behold what He does with the mess we’ve created….
Jeromy, I feel you brother.
Tracy, I think you are dead on in regards to immaturity. True maturity was always the capacity to stay in love. It was personified in mercy not judgment. Well said.
Jonathan,
This touches me very deeply as I have seen up close and personal what happens when people have challenges and the church does not stand in the gap, but rather reaches for the stones.
My post on Sunday was on this topic and the fact that the church is to be a society of restoration (I’m working my way through The Jesus Creed for Lent). We really need to get our heads around the fact that Jesus is the Contagion of Purity!
http://abisomeone.blogspot.com/2008/03/abis-lent-day-26.html
It doesn’t have to be for some big moral failing, either. Some folks get run out because of a moment of poor discernment — or because they asked someone for help and were let down and allowed to become a scapegoat.
It’s all reprehensible because Jesus comes to restore lost and broken Eikons to the Eternal Community’s fellowship. No, restoration is not something the church does well at all.
I’ve never understood that word, Jeromy, that last word of yours, and why people use it. It is quite offensive to many people, even though it is becoming more and more normal speech as generations grow up. For me, as I work hard in my pursuit of God, of holiness, I couldn’t use it. You have the freedom to use it; just be careful about using your freedom in relation to others. Others struggling with a swearing problem may not be encouraged by your use. Others will ignore what you have to offer to the dialogue because using a word like that puts up all kinds of walls. I can hear a word like that in any mall as I walk behind young people. I am a bit surprised to find it in this context.
Steve, is it possible that we have very little language around frustration and anger? Groaning doesn’t convey the message but the “f” word does. You got his point, even though you didn’t like it.
Steve, actually it would be good to hear why you say people are quite offended by it. Help me with this one.
~Steve~
When I read words like Mike’s and recall the incredible painful conversations I have had with “fallen” and “resigned” pastors who have been cast out and shunned; when I am stunned into silence at the lack of grace, love, and forgiveness from those who “follow” Jesus’ way; when I am sitting across from a table from a former pastor-superman who has absolutely no—ZERO—friends left from his old church (where people used to flock to him) because they found out he was a—gasp!—sinner; when all those things plus some of my own personal experience come to mind, there is not other word besides ‘fuck’ that can express it my deep anger and frustration.
I am sorry, but I offer no apologies for using it…I hope you understand. If you don’t, I understand where you are coming from. BTW, because it is such a powerful, emotionally charged word, I RARELY use it. So the very fact that it is used here should give you a SMALL indication of how strongly I feel.
Blessings!
The word in the context I grew up in was extremely degrading to women. It spoke of vulgarity and cursing. When I hear it, it grates against the Spirit in me. When I hear a follower of Jesus say it, I see people pursuing holiness on the world’s terms. Does God call us just to love, or to holiness as well? In this becoming more like Jesus, do we also pursue purity of life and speech and deeds? Freedom in Jesus isn’t about an unlimited “grace pass” we flick out when ever we want to shout an expletive or commit adultry. That is rather childish.
Swearing is the only words people can use to describe ultimate suffering? I don’t buy it. Do I think Jesus would have used it on the cross when He was rejected? Close your eyes and imagine Him shouting it everytime the hammer comes down on a nail. Jesus knows about all the crap that has gone on since the Garden of Eden. Our journey is about growing up. We did things as children that we don’t do as adults, both physically as well as spiritually.
I understand why you’d want to use it, but the moment you offer no apologies you are actually being quite selfish. You can edit a blog all you want. You can save it as a draft indefinately until you post. You are using it for the shock of it, as you state.
I posted my comment to suggest, as a brother, that you may limit your ministry in using it. I suppose you didn’t post your comment as ministry, though, so that makes it okay. I suggested that in community, we are not free to do whatever we want because we have to take other people’s feelings into account.
I’ve been in that place. A poor pastor, who’s wife (a nurse) decides she would rather be with a rich doctor. I lost my friends, my 3 kids (it’s a long story), and a host of other things. For you to swear like that in that context actually cheapens my whole experience because through it all I worked hard to maintain my integrity and who I was before God. And here the best you can do is swear? All I hear from you is this emergent stuff is “touchy-feely” love everyone with no expectations of God’s grace in my life to keep me close to Him. There is no encouragement to stand firm in the armour of God and fight the fight. We’re all wounded. Talk about frustrated, and here I have to defend a comment about watching your language that I would cringe to have my 7 year old repeat.
How many posts do I have to read that keeps pointing out all the problems. Can we not focus on what is going right, on what we are doing right? Time to grow up and stop beaking. I need to read 1 Corinthians 13 again.
Steve are you talking to me or Jeromy?
Jonathon, I’m talking to anyone who thinks they have no responsibility for the words they use in public. 1 Corinthians 13 talks about growing up. In John 3 Jesus talks to Nicodemus about growing up. Hebrews 5 talks about it.
I respect your blog, and appreciate the fact you have never sworn, regardless whether you had excuse or not. that was never the point. I think you dwell a bit much on the errors of the church, and not enough on the things that are good and working (whether they be emergent in form or traditionsl), but that is just my opinion. I also recognize that you have tried to balance this because it is not an us/them thing, a me/you thing, it is a we thing. This whole thing is our church, the only one we have.
There are many elements of our church not working, but I do tire of the shame based dialogues we work within. We need to be working and dialoging about/in our strengths more than anything these days. Maybe this is more my journey than yours, but I don’t need anymore deconstruction. Life brings enough of that on its own. I have to pursue that which builds and works.
Steve
Regarding my choice of words, do you think God was put-off or lost any sleep because I expressed myself in such a manner?
I am certain that my integrity and who I am before God—a child of his whom he loves without end—was not affected.
I understand where you are coming from.
Holiness isn’t about being or not being a child of God, because salvation is not based on works, but grace. What we do or don’t do when we’re saved, what we say or don’t say, reflects more of what God is doing in our life. I never questioned your salvation, I never even said it was a sin. I suggested it was an issue of freedom, that is not about you, per se, but someone else reading this public blog.
Do I think God is put off by swearing? Does stuff like that grieve the Spirit? What does it take to”put-off” God (He never sleeps, so I will let the second question go…)? There are some absolutes talked about in the Bible that we could all agree on, a lot of them focussing on (lack of) love. Paul did say that many things are alowable, but not all profitable. I granted you the freedom to use whatever language you want, and I still grant you that freedom. If you refuse to hear me when I say it is not always about you, that is your freedom too. And have a good day.
Jonathon,
What I would really be interested in reading here is how your Thrive group operates. What does your week look like? What happens with children and youth throughout the week? What do you focus on on weekends? You use your own homegrown material (from what I gather) – what does that entail? Is there a place for Seniors in your group, and what do they need to do to fit in? I truly am interested in you telling us how your life is different in this place you are at.
Steve
Steve, although I appreciate your opinions about swearing I do not share them. I have reconciled a long time ago about the nature of swearing and the use of language. When aimed at people, I think it is terribly destructive and will not be tolerated here, nor in my life. When used as expression of emotions to convey a point (frustration and anger) I will allow it, and have used it from time to time. If it gets abused, I’ll address it. But nobody seems to be abusing it. This is a public blog but everyone chooses to come here. I can’t monitor that nor do I want to.
When Jeromy, who is a good friend of mine wrote that I knew what he meant. And I “chose” not to censor him. I did so because I felt that it would take away from what he was trying to say.
Nor do I spend all of my time talking about the emerging church. It’s a big topic because I think the best expressions of church and community (my opinion from what I see) are coming out of it. And I specifically don’t use shame here. I think it’s a cheap mechanism to get someone to act a certain way. My central discussion point is love, which I believe is at the center of Missio Dei.
I have asked myself about writing about Thrive, and I do from time to time. But my hope is always that you are encouraged to love.
I will mull the “how life is different” question and save it for a post.
Steve, I wanted to ask you a second questions. You said, “For you to swear like that in that context actually cheapens my whole experience because through it all I worked hard to maintain my integrity and who I was before God. And here the best you can do is swear?”
How did Jeromy’s original remark cheapen your experience through it all? He was the one who swore. Not you. Help me again with this one.
You know what? I just took it all too seriously. It’s not a big deal.
Blessings.